The Pitt, which side do you pick?

[Cyberman]

I'm just wondering which side everybody picks for The Pitt DLC

[RoyBatty]

I pick the slavers since Ashur's motives are genuine. Wernher and Midea are liars and just want to take over as well as kidnapping a child from it's caring parents for personal gain is questionable at best and totally wrong at worst, especially when Ashur already plans to share the cure.

[Cyberman]

I pick the slavers since Ashur's motives are genuine. Wernher and Midea are liars and just want to take over as well as kidnapping a child from it's caring parents for personal gain is questionable at best and totally wrong at worst, especially when Ashur already plans to share the cure.

I kind a get your point. I was thinking about this last night and kinda felt that the mother was realistically the most qualified to experiment on the baby to get the cure. And as far as I'm aware, nobody else there is a doctor. With that said though, they are the only slaver faction I think I could side with.

[Callen151]

I side with Ashur for the same reasoning as Roy. Wernher and Midea aren't doctors or scientist. They want the kid for their own selfish reasons. As much as I hate slavers, Ashur and Sandra by all accounts seem to be loving parents and want to develop the cure for everyone.

My personal headcanon is that my Lone Courier will threaten Ashur that if he doesn't provide on the cure, I'll kill him and all his men and set the slaves free.

[Madrias]

Again, siding with Ashur and his slavers. While they are unfortunately slavers, Ashur is trying to find a cure, and he does legitimately offer up a way to leave, through the Hole. Sure, you're more likely to die in combat, but the fact that you get freed shows that it is a real way to escape slavery.

On the flipside, Wernher and Midea just want to take over, and Wernher pulled a full deception with not telling that the cure was in fact a baby, and in fact comments on that fact and his deception because he figured if you knew, you wouldn't help. In siding with them, I feel that the slaves have no chance, as opposed to very little chance with Ashur. There's no scientists to work on a cure with Wernher, and my head-canon would be that I could see him 'recruiting' a scientist the same way he 'recruited' us to do his dirty work.

So, much as I hated siding with Ashur and his slavers (especially after I took a Fat Man to Paradise Falls and used up all of my mini-nukes...), I feel they're the lesser of two evils. There's a chance to get free by combat, there's a chance he might find a cure, and there's a chance he might re-ignite the forge of industry, and do a little good for the wasteland in the end. And a little chance is far better than no chance at all.

[Decker]

There is no perfectly morally good alternative in The Pitt DLC - Slavery is wrong, but so is kidnapping a baby.. However, considering that the slavery operation in the Pitt is causing massive human suffering and deaths on a large scale all around the place up to and including the Capital Wasteland hundreds of miles away, and all of this is really done mainly for the personal benefit of a slaver warlord Ashur and his gang of raiders, my Lone Wanderer usually ends up siding with the slaves and killing all of the hostile slavers and raiders.. IMHO if civilization is going to be rebuilt ever, this will not happen with all of these raiders and slavers running around, they need to be dealt with swiftly and decisively. There are no extra resources available to take care of a large violent prisoner population for rehabilitation, and the raiders usually do not surrender anyhow, so the only valid solution is to keep on killing all of the slavers and raiders untill they stop raiding and slaving in the region. The cure is really just a secondary priority here, the orphan baby needs a new home so Midea gets to be the foster mom.

Ideally, if it were possible in the game (it is not), The Pitt could be evacuated of all non-hostile humans, untill a cure could be researched elsewhere (Rivet City Lab or Pinkerton perhaps could help); Hired ghouls and bought robots/turrets (they are immune to rads and disease to begin with) could be brought in to work the mill and defend the fortifications. Workers could be paid with production shares and trade caravans would bring in supplies in exchange for the steel products.

[Laclongquan]

What the hell?

It's very obvious that we are going with the slaves.
- First, slaves are the majority, work their asses to dead, eating slops made of Trog . think of that for a moment. I know you dont care for slaves but should anyone have to eat Trog slop? This is a soulful question here.

- Second, the pressure is building to a head, and Wenher is just build up on that. Slave revolt is a thing. Stand on the side of raiders and you stave that off for maybe another month. Who the hell would want to work their ass off to eat slop made of trogs? So standing on raider is a futile thing.

- Third, Sarah and Ashur is the one on the side of slavers, raiders, and generally live on the wealth of slaves' blood and lives here. I bet they never had slop once.

- Fuck Wenher. Midea I have no opinion about but that man is, I dont know, typical Wasteland strongman chief. And that is no minus/positive thing about it. he just is. The point is, Ashur sit on the throne made of blood and lives of slaves so down he go. Wenher Smenher, if not him then other can replace him.

I dont know why people even hesitate on this very basic, point-giving, question. Sarah being a mother? Please, as if we need to or have to kill her anyway. Ashur being a good father? bitch please, so that will allow him to build a society of slaves who work to death and eating slop made of trog? Baby getting test and everything? Let me remind you guys of one basic rule of slave revolt: bosses die, down to babe in craddle. Survive is a great thing, innit.

Slave society dont work without slaver or manager? Please, this is no ancient slavery in agricultural or even near modern age. This is a group of hard workers who had to work a steel mill complex to make bullet case and possibly other complex things as well. Think of Pittburg workers in the 50-60. They damn well can work. If you think otherwise, some blue coverall muscled old men are going to beat you to death with their walkers.

[Risewild]

What the hell?

It's very obvious that we are going with the slaves.
- First, slaves are the majority, work their asses to dead, eating slops made of Trog . think of that for a moment. I know you dont care for slaves but should anyone have to eat Trog slop? This is a soulful question here.

- Second, the pressure is building to a head, and Wenher is just build up on that. Slave revolt is a thing. Stand on the side of raiders and you stave that off for maybe another month. Who the hell would want to work their ass off to eat slop made of trogs? So standing on raider is a futile thing.

- Third, Sarah and Ashur is the one on the side of slavers, raiders, and generally live on the wealth of slaves' blood and lives here. I bet they never had slop once.

- Fuck Wenher. Midea I have no opinion about but that man is, I dont know, typical Wasteland strongman chief. And that is no minus/positive thing about it. he just is. The point is, Ashur sit on the throne made of blood and lives of slaves so down he go. Wenher Smenher, if not him then other can replace him.

I dont know why people even hesitate on this very basic, point-giving, question. Sarah being a mother? Please, as if we need to or have to kill her anyway. Ashur being a good father? bitch please, so that will allow him to build a society of slaves who work to death and eating slop made of trog? Baby getting test and everything? Let me remind you guys of one basic rule of slave revolt: bosses die, down to babe in craddle. Survive is a great thing, innit.

Slave society dont work without slaver or manager? Please, this is no ancient slavery in agricultural or even near modern age. This is a group of hard workers who had to work a steel mill complex to make bullet case and possibly other complex things as well. Think of Pittburg workers in the 50-60. They damn well can work. If you think otherwise, some blue coverall muscled old men are going to beat you to death with their walkers.

WARNING, WALL OF TEXT INCOMING.

On another forum (years ago), I made several posts about Ashur and Wernher dominance over the Pitt. And why it's better for the slaves to remain under Ashur's leadership. I'll quote some of those posts so I don't have to spend a long time writing this all again.

Ashur doesn't like using slaves, and also doesn't like the word "slave". He is only using them because it is the only way to build a future for The Pitt.
He uses slaves because no one else would want to work in The Pitt because of all the radiation sickness. His plan is to build a industrial community that will benefit mankind for the future.

He says that once the cure is found (using his daughter Marie to do it), he won't need to force people to work anymore and will free all the slaves. After that he will continue using the industrial complex in The Pitt to pave the road for the benefit of mankind. A community that will be fair for everyone, leader and workers (where everyone will be prosperous and work on their own free will). It will be a prosperous place that can make use of the pre-war machinery to help mankind's future.

Basically, Ashur's doing a bad thing now to lead to a good thing for everyone. Exactly like "the end justifies the means". He's not proud of it, he doesn't even like it, but he's doing it to make the wasteland a better place for everyone.

Now Wernher says he wants to save the slaves, but what he does and says shows that he actually just want to sit in Ashur's throne. He doesn't mind killing an innocent baby if that makes that ascension to power faster. After we depose Ashur and Wernher takes control, everyone is still a slave and working exactly the same as when they were under Ashur's rule. No one is free, no one leaves The Pitt, nothing changes.

Basically, Wernher's just a power hungry bastard that makes a revolt just so he can control The Pitt.

If you should feel bad for taking one side or another is all up to you though.

Based on what?

Based on beating The Pitt supporting Wernher. When you go back to the Pitt, the slaves are still in the same place, doing the same thing. Still live in the same area (instead of moving to Uptown where Ashur's "guards" used to live), Midea's is experimenting on Marie to find the cure in her tiny ruined "house" instead of doing it in the much nicer lab in Haven (Ashur's Home).

Also Midea says some things that don't strike me as Wernher freeing people or letting them go:

At least Wernher's taking care of organizing the city, so I can work on the cure.

It's not easy keeping these people from tearing each other apart. I don't know how Ashur did it.

Wernher takes the "ruler" position right away, and things just get worst for the "workers".

EDIT: I just remembered that even Wernher's own words made me think he was a power hungry bastard that doesn't care for the slaves or the Pitt. So I went to check it out:

I got folks working on it, 24/7. It'd go faster if they didn't keep fussing about not hurting the little squirt. {Grudging towards the complainers}

You'd think an old slave like her would know how to work without raising a fuss, right?

Oh, it'll be fine. I can take care of extracting the full cure from it, and meanwhile the slaves can raise it as one of their own. {Obviously doesn't care about the baby}

Still call them slaves and plans on having Marie being raised as a slave too :V.

You, him, and this whole town can burn for all I care. I'm gone.

But you know what? Fuck this city, and fuck the raiders, fuck the slaves, and fuck you too, fucker. I'm gone

Yeah, but it's gonna take work to clean up after the riots. I can take care of the day-to-day stuff - you just reap the benefits, huh? {Wernher just likes being effectively in charge of The Pitt, and is basically buying off the player}

Whatever you want, boss. I'll be whipping folks back into shape, and Midea's keeping an eye on the brat, so you can come and go as you like.

Now that Ashur's gone, there's gonna be some changes around here, believe me. {Pleased with himself, a little ominous}

No, I don't think so. You may not have the guts to change The Pitt, but I sure do.

The LW set the trogs loose on uptown. I assumed it was not a viable place to live anymore.

If you're taking over the Pitt, you will not want a place full of trogs right around the corner. Not to mention that Haven has much better equipped facilities and probably research notes that could improve the speed of finding the cure.
Also one wouldn't even need to kill the trogs. All one needs to do is repeat the Lone Wanderer's steps that lead to the trogs invading and turn the flood lights on again (which scares the trogs away, back to their "territory"). The Lone Wanderer did it once (to turn the lights off), it can do it again (probably even easier, since most or all trogs in the path to the terminal are now dead).

Someone needs to be in charge. And given that she says 'I don't know how Ashur did it' indicates that people were trying to tear each other apart before, so that doesn't indicate a worsening state of affairs.

No, it indicates that Ashur managed to not have people tear each other apart. But Midea doesn't know how he did it. Also, Ashur punished harshly any of guards that mistreated slaves. While in Wernher's case, people are all in a salvage state, trying to kill each other, no law or order.
Which means that Wernher sucks at being in charge or it makes it worst for people living there.

What else would he call them? The former slaves, the people, whatever people from Pittsburg are called or something along those lines? I guess that's worrying, but he strikes me more as laziness on their devs part than as a hint of what's 'really happening'. When you free slaves in game they don't get a new title/generic name in any other situation so it seems fairly consistent with that.

Erm... Ashur calls them workers, and even lectures his own right hand man when he calls them slaves. Names matter and just by this little example, we can see that Ashur cares more for the workers than Wernher does.
The devs were lazy, but clearly made sure that the player knows that Ashur calls them workers and doesn't like when their own men call them slaves (with an entire unskippable and unmissable conversation that you have to watch before continuing the story), but then just make Wernher still call them slaves after they are "free"? I doubt that.

The next block o' quotes start off with two similarly ambiguous statements as, unless I'm mistaken, those are said after you tell him that you're betraying him to work for Ashur. Seems like the sort of thing someone would say in that situation.

No, those quotes is if you try to convince Wernher to leave without a fight.
I also don't agree that would be the sort of thing someone would say in that situation, unless they are childish assholes that got angry that their dreams of power got shattered. What a person that cares for The Pitt and/or the slaves would say would probably be something like "Fine, you win. But you will have to live with the suffering of The Pitt people's in your conscience." or "Hope you know you're condemning The Pitt's people to a lifetime of slavery and suffering. I am out of here." or anything like that.
Not to mention Wernher's also lies in some conversations. He says that if Ashur gets the cure, no one will be able to free the slaves anymore, Ashur and his guards will have all the power. But Ashur makes it quite clear that he will free the slaves once he gets the cure. It's no secret and Ashur's quite adamant to tell you and anyone that wants listen, his great plans for the future of The Pitt.

Corporal punishment on the other hand is clearly indicated. I recall surviving in the Pitt is difficult so it's not like anyone who remains is going to have any easy time of things, and people are trying to kill each other. That they'd have to work their asses off under horrible conditions to survive just seems logical. So there are less terrible conclusions than 'everything is the same or worse' which are plausible. This is not to say that you're interpretation is wrong, it's just that there's only so much that we can definitively draw from what we see.

Some of my quotes were more aimed at the "author notes" that came with the quote. The "author notes" are notes that the writer places on the script to help the voice actors to know how to speak/say/intone certain parts of the script. It is the perfect way of knowing what the writer's want to demonstrate in the dialogue and many times shines a light on the personality of the character.

Those notes show without a doubt that the writer wanted Wernher to be a power hungry, lying, bloodthirsty, deceiving bastard that doesn't care about anything besides being in control and that he even plans to betray the Lone Wanderer (just like he tried to do with Ashur and got demoted from right hand man to a slave himself).

Here, I will quote a few more and bold the "author notes" used to convey Wernher's personality:

I got folks working on it, 24/7. It'd go faster if they didn't keep fussing about not hurting the little squirt. {Grudging towards the complainers}

Oh, things are fine. Don't let any grumblers tell you differently! {Slick and untrustworthy}

But it's a small price to pay for seeing the end of Ashur and his bastards, right? {Happily bloodthirsty}

Oh, it'll be fine. I can take care of extracting the full cure from it, and meanwhile the slaves can raise it as one of their own. {Obviously doesn't care about the baby}

It's a resilient little spud! Don't you worry about it. {Grinning and totally untrustworthy, like a used car salesman saying "TRUST ME!"}

And after all this work, you're going to turn around and betray me? {Emphasis on "you're going to betray ME?", suggesting that he was going to betray the player}

Yeah, but it's gonna take work to clean up after the riots. I can take care of the day-to-day stuff - you just reap the benefits, huh? {Wernher just likes being effectively in charge of The Pitt, and is basically buying off the player}

And if you really care, Midea said she's looking for toys for the brat. I guess if you find anything, you could bring them to her. {Doesn't like the kid}

Now that Ashur's gone, there's gonna be some changes around here, believe me. {Pleased with himself, a little ominous}

Don't you worry about a thing. I've got everything under control! {Untrustworthy}

You just wait, we'll whip The Pitt back into shape! {Untrustworthy}

We don't know the total trog population. We know they eat humans, and not other trogs. Naturally that would mean that trogs will keep coming toward human habitats. Any that the LW killed are likely replaced now that they have free reign of the area. The numbers the LW encountered were those there when the slavers were keeping them at bay (more than we ever saw). We also don't know if more would just keep coming, increasing their density in the area. Presumably, places actively cleared have less than those next to them, which have less than those next to them.

Trogs don't reproduce, they are created by the radiation sickness. Most (if not all) of the trogs got decimated when the BoS made what is known as "the Scourge", that happened 22 years before the Lone Wanderer reaches the Pitt. Since it is stated ingame that it takes years for a person to become a trog and that most people die instead of becoming trogs (75%-80% of adult people infected by TDC die instead of turning into trogs and only adults become trogs). We can safely assume that the trog population is not that high. Specially since guards and steelyard "workers" are implied to kill some from time to time.
What I just wrote is assumptions substanciated by what information the game provide us. But we can also see those results ingame.

I just played The Pitt picking Werhner side to refresh my memory and to make sure I don't spread misinformation. We can go back to the area where the light terminal is, I only encountered 4 trogs this time, while the first time I encountered waves of them. Those 4 were probably some I didn't kill the first time, since I rushed to the terminal. We can go back to the terminal without any problems.

We can speculate that it's possible to clear them out, but for all we know the lights, grid, etc needed regular repairs to work. For all we know the fighting damaged things. If the principle is the same as with wild animals in the real world, then it's effect is entirely moot once they're in the area that you want to keep them out of. It's more of a barrier than an actual repellent. It spooks, not hurts.

But we do know the state of things in Uptown. The game doesn't block access to it at all after you beat the DLC.
I just did so and there was 5 or 6 trogs there. Nothing I couldn't deal with by myself. The lights and fences show no sign of damage at all, nothing in the infrastructure changes. Not only that, but Haven still has it's lights on, and no trogs were near it:

This enforces what I said, there is nothing preventing us from just go there and wipe the trogs out and lock the fence gate that the trogs first come from. Then we just stroll to the terminal and turn the lights on. If the lights or fences needed repair for whatever reason, we have an entire work force to fix those things for us. Nothing would be stopping it.

Less than you think. Read carefully please. It doesn't indicate that either is managing to stop all violence. They might be, they might not be. It only indicates that both had/have something to stop from happening. Their success level is not really indicated. The rest is speculation without support. Not much to say about that.

It says "I don't know how Ashur's managed to stop people from wanting to kill each other". If people don't want to kill each other, then they wouldn't be killing each other... I don't see how you can think that under Ashur was as bad as under Werhner when those words leave nothing to imagination...
Ashur = People don't want to kill each other = Order.
Werhner = People want to kill each other = Chaos.

Him calling them workers is propaganda. It's coded language. Labels don't define people. Werhner also says they're freed. It's contradictory, but the fact that freed slave is an oxymoron doesn't stop people from using it. And Werhner may just be acknowledging that they have been slaves. It's not like more than five minutes have passed since they were 'freed' before he says it, or that anyone's going to jump in and say 'well actually we're free people because we're not enslaved anymore.'

I'm sorry, I honestly can't help but laugh here. It's fine if you want to believe him, but his propaganda is not prophesy. Even if he recorded saying as much to his daughter in those holo-whatevers that would just mean that he wanted her to believe it too. That isn't to say he couldn't be sincere, but Fallout generally doesn't reward innocence.

And I can't help laugh too. It is not propaganda. Ashur does want to free the slave and help The Pitt become a free citizenship place. If you don't believe his own words when he explains in great detail his plans, and you don't believe what he says in his diary for his daughter. Then read the writer's notes at the end of this post.
But how would you not believe his words for his daughter but you believe a untrustworthy bastard like Werhner?

To refresh the memory about what he say to his daughter in those diaries you mentioned:

He says he saw the Pitt with it's working steel mill the perfect opportunity to rebuilt civilization in a "world of leftovers" is not proud of using slaves, how forced labor is only a temporary measure and how her (Marie) will be considered a hero by the time she is 10 years old, because she would have been the cause for the cure that will help the entire city? Why would he lie to his own daughter in his own diary that is locked in a safe and that is the only container in the entire room that is considered "owned", you can freely take anything else from that room, including the stuff from a dresser and a desk.

If you still can't see how Ashur is really honest about his plans, and I can't sway you with any of this information then try the writer's notes at the end of this post.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. he's definitely a power hungry asshole. This doesn't indicate that the slaves aren't free, or that he never intended to free them. He definitely doesn't give two shits about that baby. Their living conditions certainly didn't change dramatically overnight, though that was never in the cards.

There is a poor guy that is rolling on the floor saying how he is very sick, and the game gives an option to try to heal him (if we have enough medicine skill, which I didn't in this character) or the option to leave him be or to end his misery. I came back a couple days after "liberating" The Pitt and he is still there suffering. All the "workers" still complain about how much they are forced to work, how they just want to rest, how they can't talk and have to work, etc.
Not only that, but even Milly, a slave that was friendly towards me (because I found out what had happened to Wild Bill) before I beat the DLC, now just tells me aggressively to "Go Away!" instead of being friendly again.

This is all in the game and showing it right in our face, the slaves are forced to work the same under Ashur or Werhner, slaves that were friendly to you are aggressive now, no slave thanks you or is happy in any way, no slave mentions being free or working on their own free will, etc. The slave that is sick in the middle of the ground is still rolling on the ground suffering... Nothing changes.

On another note "Suggesting that he was going to betray the player" doesn't mean that he was planning to. Writers sometimes want their audience to consider things that aren't actually true. Also something I never expected to explain, but I guess that's a writer's affliction.

How about how the writer notes in this case "Now that Ashur's gone, there's gonna be some changes around here, believe me. {Pleased with himself, a little ominous}"?
There is nothing to be interpreted by the word ominous, it means "with evil intent". Or the so many notes of "Untrustworthy" or how he lies about Ashur's plans (which the game shows are true).

We already took a look on Werhner's notes that the writer provided. So why not take a look at Ashur's writer's notes too:

Ever since the city was scourged, we've done what everyone does: whatever's necessary to survive. {A little sad - he's not proud of the part he played in scourging the city all those years ago.}

I know my city seems barbaric to you, but it's the only way we can carve out a home in this hellhole, and it's kept these people alive. {Unapologetic for his city, and proud of his people's perseverance.}

It's taken me a lot of work to rebuild this city. With your help, it's finally going to have a chance. {A little melancholy about the scourge - still feels responsible for the tragedy that befell the city back then.}

I wish I could, but you have to see things in the bigger picture. Without those workers, this city would fall apart. {Not happy that he has to keep people in forced labor}

Right now, nothing. Until we can reproduce a treatment from Marie, they'll have to keep working. Otherwise, this city falls apart. {Not happy that he has to keep people in forced labor}

While the rest of the world scrambles to survive, we have an army, industry, and thanks to a recent surprise, we've got no need to fear radiation. {Proud of his city and its bright prospects}

If you still want me to believe that the writer wanted to make Werhner the one to free the slaves and Ashur a liar that just want to keep using slaves to work on his city... Well, I can't imagine how you would still think that.

[Laclongquan]

I will take time deal with your points over several posts.

1. The major, on surface, reason people favor ashur is that he promised to free the slave once the cure is found, willing to take time reseach cure from his daughter.
+++ so as long as he slow/delay the research he can delay freeing slaves, the source of his wealth.

Obviously, i have serious doubt on his commitment on both things.

2. The major thing, on surface, people have against wenheir is his bloodthirsty on willing to push research on the baby and his using all possible means to kill slave owners and catchers.
++ on 1 hand everyone incl him rely on the baby to prevent against mutation. The presssure is huge.
++ the slavery faction has all the guns and the slave has att best steel saw, no armor. So he damned well going to use all means beacause he dont have much else

[Risewild]

I will take time deal with your points over several posts.

1. The major, on surface, reason people favor ashur is that he promised to free the slave once the cure is found, willing to take time reseach cure from his daughter.
+++ so as long as he slow/delay the research he can delay freeing slaves, the source of his wealth.

Obviously, i have serious doubt on his commitment on both things.

2. The major thing, on surface, people have against wenheir is his bloodthirsty on willing to push research on the baby and his using all possible means to kill slave owners and catchers.
++ on 1 hand everyone incl him rely on the baby to prevent against mutation. The presssure is huge.
++ the slavery faction has all the guns and the slave has att best steel saw, no armor. So he damned well going to use all means beacause he dont have much else

The thing is that the game and the writer notes (I mentioned them on my previous post) shows how Ashur wants the cure as soon as possible. He will not delay it more than what is needed to not harm his daughter.
He hates having to use slaves, he wants his daughter to be seen as a hero and savior, he wants the Pitt to become a proper society without slavery, where everyone will work on their own free will.
The source of his wealth is not the slaves, the source of his wealth is the functional steelyard with all the metal and ammo presses. That is why he settled there, so that he can make the Pitt a great manufacturer settlement, since he says there's nothing else like that anywhere around.

The thing about Wernher, is that he lies to the Lone Wanderer, he also plans on betray the LW sooner or later (as seen on the writer's notes). He makes the Pitt situation worse than it was. Since Midea says, people are all trying to kill each other since Wernher took control, and that she has no idea how Ashur managed to avoid that situation.
Also, nothing changes when Wernher becomes the "acting" leader of the Pitt, the slaves are still forced to work, they still complain about it, and as I mentioned before, even slaves that were friendly with the LW become hostile when talked to (like Milly).

Once again, the writer's notes prove that whoever wrote the Pitt DLC, wanted Wernher to be a lying, backstabbing, untrustworthy, power hungry, immoral, etc. character. That is all perfectly stated in those writer's notes.
The writer definitely intended and wrote Ashur as the good leader and Wernher as the evil one.